Finding John Costello

Finding John Costello – A DNA Journey: The Fried Family, John’s Family, Part 3

thegenealogygirl

Finding John Costello

 

The Fried Family was gathering in America.

 

Isidore, Sarah, and Leona were first to arrive in 1905 or 1906.1  They were followed by Fannie & Morris in 1907.2  Then Samuel and Anna arrived in 1913.3  America was now the home to the Fried family patriarch, Samuel.  But the Fried family straddled the ocean with mother and matriarch Riwke in Eastern Europe4 with at least one child, Sura.5

Samuel's children.jpg

 

Not only was the Fried family gathering, but Samuel and Riwke’s posterity was growing in America.

Samuel and Riwke's descendants

 

In June of 1915, Isidore was still missing and the fate of his wife Sarah and two daughters was unknown.  But they enter a quiet period while the other Fried family members find their place in a new country away from the troubles and persecutions of their homeland.

 

 

Anna Fried

 

Hinde, who would be known as Anna, is the youngest Fried family member that came to the U.S.  She traveled with her father, arriving in the Port of New York 13 September 1913,6 then she slipped quietly out of the Fried spotlight.  Her next appearance in the records is at the time of her marriage to David Haspel on 12 January 1919 in New York City.7

Anna and David were blessed with two daughters, Suzanne and Ruth.  Suzanne went on to have three children of her own and Ruth had one daughter.  Suzanne’s three children and one granddaughter are the individuals in my DNA cluster #2.8  Ruth’s daughter is my most recent DNA test taker.  [Can’t wait for those results!!!]

Because Anna’s descendants are excellent communicators who answer any question I can think of and have shared all sorts of details, memories, and facts with me, I have not yet given Anna the full research treatment.  But there are two notable details linked to Anna that quietly weave along through our tale to the finish.

First, Anna arrived after Isidore had left New York.9  She also arrived almost two full years after he skipped out on his parole.10  Anna likely never saw Isidore in the U.S.  Additionally, given the details about the Fried family dynamics shared with me by Anna’s descendants, it is entirely possible that Anna never heard one single whisper about Isidore, Sarah, and their girls from her sister Fannie or father Samuel.  This matters because of the story of the lost brother that lives in the memories of Anna’s posterity.11  If Anna had seen Isidore or knew that he came to America–or could even remember his name–any of those facts would make the story a lie.  Anna had no motivation to lie about her unnamed older brother to her grandchildren.

Second, the Hebrew portion of Anna’s headstone reads, “Here lies buried Hinda daughter of the Rabbi Yehoshua Fried.”12  This provides helpful details about Samuel, the fact that he was a Rabbi and that his Hebrew name was Yehoshua.

One last note about Anna, she had a social security number.13  Her SS-5 form has been ordered and I am anxiously awaiting the scan of that precious card, likely written in her own hand, that will hopefully give us a specific birthplace and list the name of Anna’s mother, as Anna recalled it.  Now we offer a farewell tip of the hat to Anna and thank her for her wonderful descendants as we move along through the story of the rest of the Fried family.

 

 

Fannie & Morris in New York

 

After Fannie and Morris’ quick return to Europe and subsequent trip back to America, they settled into 212 E 2nd St. in New York City where they lived for several years.  Just six months after their re-entry into the U.S., on 18 February 1913, “Moris Geier,” declared his intention to become a citizen of the United States.14

Almost two years later, the Geiers were still living on 2nd Street with their young daughter Sarah and Fannie’s father Samuel when the New York State Census was taken on 1 June 1915.15  This record is interesting for several reasons. 

 

 

Geier:Fried 1915 NY State Census crop
Selection of the 1915 New York State Census for the Morris Geier household.  The full record can be viewed here.

 

 

First, Fannie & Morris list the number of years they have been in the U.S. as “7.”  At first glance, this might seem like they are referring back to their first entry to the U.S. in 190716 but not doing the math accurately and being off by a year.  However, with a more critical eye, it is stating that they have been in the U.S. a total of about 7 years when you subtract their time back in Europe.  A surprisingly accurate and insightful answer.  Sarah (Sadie on this record) is listed as being a “cit” for citizen and Samuel is listed as having been in the U.S. for 2 years.  The second item of interest in Samuel’s occupation of Peddler.  Is that compatible with the later note on Anna’s headstone that claims he was a Rabbi?

About a month after the 1915 NY Census, Fannie and Morris welcomed their second daughter Adele into their family on 3 July 1915.17  Like the rest of the family, Adele would be known by a few names.  On the index to her birth record, she was “Hettie Geier.”  On most records, she was Adele or a spelling variant of that name, but occasionally she was listed as Hattie.

Five months after Adele’s birth, on 6 December 1917, Morris filed for a copy of his certificate of arrival.18

Twelve days later, on 18 December 1917, “Moris Geier,” petitioned for naturalization in the County of New York.19  This record adds some important details to the body of knowledge about Fannie & Morris’ family.  In the family details section, we pick up several important facts.

 

Morris Geier, petition for Naturalization personal details
Selection from “Moris” Geier’s Petition for Naturalization.  The full record can be viewed here.

 

Morris and Fannie were still living on 2nd Street.  Morris was a candy merchant.  He listed a birthdate of 20 March 1883 in Lublin, Russia.  When we pair the birthplace of Lublin, Russia with the birthplace on his 1907 ship manifest of “Tomaszow, Russia”20 and the birthplace on his 1912 ship manifest of “Tomaczow, Russia,”21 we get the only precise and easily identifiable place in Eastern Europe for the entire Fried/Geier family.  Present day, Tomaszów Lubelski, Poland, was part of the Russian Empire at the time of Morris’ birth, as well as the birth of all of the Fried family members in our story.  We have a place people!  A place in Europe to get us across that big ol’ pond called the Atlantic Ocean.

Near the bottom of Morris’ Petition for Naturalization, we pick up two more important details.

 

Moris Geier, naturalization record, signature and witnesses crop
Selection from “Moris” Geier’s Petition for Naturalization.  The full record can be viewed here.

 

 

First, we see Morris’ uniquely awful signature which can then be compared to his WWI and WWII Draft Registration signatures.

And second, and perhaps most notably, the first witness listed on Morris’ petition is “Pincus Bennison of 164 Stanton St.,” New York City.  Pincus Bennison or Pinchas Benenson or, more accurately, Pincus Benenson, as his signature reads, is the friend or relative that Morris & Fannie listed as the person they were joining in the U.S. when they re-entered America in August of 1912.22  The Stanton St. address in NYC is identical or three numbers different, depending on what numbers you see on that 1912 record.

With Morris associating with Pincus in August of 1912 and then again in December of 1917–a five-year span–Pincus and his family become our first candidates to have cared for little Sarah Geier while her parents rushed off to Europe.

Morris is not initially successful in achieving U.S. citizenship.

 

Morris Geier, naturalization continuance crop.jpg
Selection from “Moris” Geier’s Petition for Naturalization.  The full record can be viewed here.

 

But, a bit more than six months after the continuance, Morris becomes an American citizen on 4 October 1918.23

 

Morris Geier, naturalization date.jpg
Selection from “Moris” Geier’s Petition for Naturalization.  The full record can be viewed here.

 

Life after that seemed to sail along fairly smoothly for the Geiers with no obvious interactions between them and Fannie’s family.

On 6 January 1920, Morris, Fannie, Sarah, and Adele were living at 223 E 3rd Street in New York City.24

Four years later, on 16 October 1924, Morris Geier, resident of 3 Clinton St., Manhattan was included on the voter list for the 21st election district of the Borough of Manhattan.25

Then on 1 June 1925, Morris, Fannie, Sarah, and “Hattie,” were living at 3 Clinton Street in New York City on the 1925 New York State Census.26

About five years later, on 5 April 1930, Morris, Fannie, Adele, and married daughter Sarah and her husband “Hyman Bronstein” were living at 2255 85th Street in Brooklyn.27

Ten years later, on 9 April 1940, Morris, Fannie, Adele, and married daughter Sarah and her husband and son, Hyman and Stanley Brownstein, lived at 2215 83rd Street in Brooklyn on the 1940 US Federal Census.28

Our last confirmed record for Morris and Fannie is in 1942, when Morris Geier, resident of 2215 83rd St. in Brooklyn, registered for the WWII draft registration.29

Likely headstones have been found for Fannie and Morris along with death indexes.  Death records need to be ordered.  The descendants of Fannie offer one good candidate for DNA testing–Adele’s living son–and two less useful candidates–Sarah’s two living granddaughters.

 

Fannie & Morris Geier descendants

 

And so ends Fannie’s part of the Fried family story with the exception of one very small, but important, interaction with her father Samuel.  Fannie’s early years in the U.S. were riddled with connections between herself and Isidore.  She and Morris listed Isidore as the person they were joining in the U.S. when they first arrived in 1907.30  Fannie is referenced as Isidore’s “sister” in several newspaper articles in 1909 and 1910.31  Isidore and Sarah, or maybe more accurately, Sarah named their third daughter Fannie,32 likely after Isidore’s sister.  Both Fannie and Isidore named a child Sarah,33 possibly after Isidore’s wife Sarah, but also possibly after their sister Sura who was treasured and cared for by the Frieds as a child with some unknown type of disability.34  And then, after the 1911 return to Europe by Fannie and Morris, all obvious connections between Isidore and Fannie cease.

 

 

Did Fannie see Isidore again after she went to Europe?  Would Samuel’s American story include Isidore?  Would Riwke and Sura make it to America?  Would this fractured family ever be made whole?

 

 

 

to be continued . . .

 

 

 

  1. Department of Corrections, “Alton State Penitentiary and Joliet/Stateville Correctional Center – Registers of Prisoners,” Record Series 243.200, Illinois State Archives, Joliet Vol. 18, Oct 30, 1908-Feb 2, 1910, entry for Isadore Fried, date received 30 June 1909.  1910 U.S. census, Cook County, Illinois, population schedule, Chicago, sheet no. 14A (penned), dwelling 72, family 257, Sarah Fried household with Selda Kamin family, lines 45-47; image, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com : accessed 25 May 2019); citing NARA microfilm publication T624, roll 250.  1910 U.S. census, Will County, Illinois, population schedule, Joliet Township, sheet no. 7A (penned), Illinois State Penitentiary, Isadore Fried, prisoner, line 14; image, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com : accessed 25 May 2019); citing NARA microfilm publication T624, roll 334.  1920 U.S. census, Cook County, Illinois, population schedule, Chicago, sheet no. 4B (penned), dwelling 33, family 77, Sarah Fried household, lines 77-79; image, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com : accessed 25 May 2019); citing NARA microfilm publication T625, roll 330.  1930 U.S. census, Cook County, Illinois, population schedule, Chicago, sheet no. 13B (penned), dwelling 82, family 257, Leo A. Rivkin household, lines 60-65; image, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com : accessed 27 May 2019); citing NARA microfilm publication T626. ↩
  2. “New York, Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957,” database, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com : accessed 25 May 2019), entry for Moses Geier, age 24, and Feige Geier, age 20, arrived New York 10 November 1907 aboard the Wittekind from Bremen. ↩
  3. “New York, Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957,” database, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com : accessed 23 May 2019), entry for Schije Freid, age 51, arrived New York 13 September 1913 aboard the Amerika from Hamburg. ↩
  4. “New York, Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957,” database, Ancestry, entry for Schije Fried, 51, arrived 13 Sep. 1913, Amerika. ↩
  5. Cousin “Sarah,” great-granddaughter of Hinde Fried, email to author, 29 March 2019. ↩
  6. “New York, Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957,” database, Ancestry, entry for Schije Fried, 51, arrived 13 Sep. 1913, Amerika. ↩
  7. New York City Clerk, 1919 Manhattan Marriage Licenses, vol. 1, license #647, Anna Fried & David Haspel, 9 January 1919, New York Municipal Archives; database with images, Ancestry, “New York, New York, Marriage License Indexes, 1907-2018, for Anna Fried & David Haspel, (https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?viewrecord=1&r=an&db=NYCMarriageIndex&indiv=try&h=8523395 : accessed 24 June 2019). ↩
  8. Cousin “Sarah,” great-granddaughter of Hinde Fried, multiple communications to author, in author files. ↩
  9. “Former Corporation Head Under Charges,” The Decatur Herald (Decatur, Illinois), 23 March 1909, p. 1, col. 4, par. 4 of article, “A requisition . . . return to Chicago of Isadore Fried . . .”; image Newspapers (https://www.newspapers.com/image/93164443/?terms=isadore%2Bfried : accessed 14 June 2019).  “New York, Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957,” database, Ancestry, entry for Schije Fried, 51, arrived 13 Sep. 1913, Amerika. ↩
  10. Department of Corrections, “Alton State Penitentiary and Joliet/Stateville Correctional Center – Registers of Prisoners,” Record Series 243.200, Illinois State Archives, Joliet Vol. 18, Oct 30, 1908-Feb 2, 1910, entry for Isadore Fried, date received 30 June 1909. ↩
  11. Amberly Beck, “Finding John Costello – A DNA Journey: The Missing Brother,” 16 April 2019, thegenealogygirl.blog. ↩
  12. Wellwood Cemetery (East Farmingdale, Suffolk County, New York), Anna Haspel marker, block 52, grave 58, division SOU; photo by Adam Monago, 2019. ↩
  13. Social Security Administration, “United States Social Security Death Index,” database, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com : accessed 24 June 2019), entry for Anna Haspel, April 1974, SS no. 111-52-7509. ↩
  14. Moris Geier declaration of intention (18 February 1913), no. 61748, naturalization file no. 73596; imaged in “New York, County Naturalization Records, 1791-1980,” database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9M8-KDLK?cc=1999177&wc=MDSY-F38%3A326209701%2C329719601 : 7 November 2018), New York > Petitions for naturalization and petition evidence 1917-1918 vol 298, no 73551-73800 > image 124 of 661; citing various county clerk offices of New York. ↩
  15. 1915 New York State Census, New York County, “Enumeration of the Inhabitants,” p. 42 (penned) [crossed out, the previous and subsequent pages were renumbered as 109 and 111, this page’s new number is not visible], New York City, election district 9, assembly district 6, lines 42-45, Morris Geier household [indexed as Moris Geier]; digital image, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com : accessed 23 May 2019); citing New York State Archives; Albany, New York; State Population Census Schedules, 1915. ↩
  16. “New York, Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957,” database, Ancestry, entry for Moses Geier, age 24, and Feige Geier age 20, arrived 10 Nov. 1907, Wittekind. ↩
  17. New York City Department of Health, “Births Reported in 1915–Borough of Manhattan,” entry for Hettie Geier, born July 3, certificate number 36276, page 220; image, Ancestry (https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61457&h=1228596&ssrc=pt&tid=152899465&pid=132092814560&usePUB=true : accessed 12 June 2019); citing New York City Department of Health, courtesy of http://www.vitalsearch-worldwide.com. ↩
  18. Moses Gajer certificate of arrival (6 December 1917), naturalization file no. 73596; imaged in “New York, County Naturalization Records, 1791-1980,” database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9M8-KDLK?cc=1999177&wc=MDSY-F38%3A326209701%2C329719601 : 7 November 2018), New York > Petitions for naturalization and petition evidence 1917-1918 vol 298, no 73551-73800 > image 124 of 661; citing various county clerk offices of New York. ↩
  19. Moris Geier petition for naturalization (18 December 1917), naturalization file no. 73596; imaged in “New York, County Naturalization Records, 1791-1980,” database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9M8-KDLK?cc=1999177&wc=MDSY-F38%3A326209701%2C329719601 : 7 November 2018), New York > Petitions for naturalization and petition evidence 1917-1918 vol 298, no 73551-73800 > image 124 of 661; citing various county clerk offices of New York. ↩
  20. “New York, Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957,” database, Ancestry, entry for Moses Geier, age 24, and Feige Geier age 20, arrived 10 Nov. 1907, Wittekind. ↩
  21. “New York, Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957,” database, Ancestry, entry for Moses Gajer, age 28, and Feige Gajer age 26, arrived 28 August 1912, Kaiser Wilhelm Der Grosse. ↩
  22. “New York, Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957,” database, Ancestry, entry for Moses Gajer, age 28, and Feige Gajer age 26, arrived 28 August 1912, Kaiser Wilhelm Der Grosse. ↩
  23. Moris Geier petition for naturalization (18 Dec. 1917), naturalization file no. 73596, New York. ↩
  24. 1920 U.S. census, New York County, New York, population schedule, Manhattan, sheet no. 11B (penned), dwelling 17, family 258, Morris Geier household, lines 55-58; image, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com : accessed 25 May 2019); citing NARA microfilm publication T625, roll 1195. ↩
  25. List of Registered Voters for the Year 1924, Borough of Manhattan—Fourth Assembly District, 21st Election District, p. 10, Clinton St., 3, entry for Morris Geier; image, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com : accessed 27 May 2019); citing New York City Municipal Archive, New York, New York, USA, 1924 NYC Voter List. ↩
  26. 1925 New York State Census, New York County, “Enumeration of the Inhabitants,” p. 3 (penned), New York City, election district 21, assembly district 4, lines 44-47, Morris Geier household; digital image, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com : accessed 27 May 2019); citing New York State Archives; Albany, New York; State Population Census Schedules, 1925. ↩
  27. 1930 U.S. census, Kings County, New York, population schedule, Brooklyn, sheet no. 10A (penned), dwelling 61, family 208, Morris Geier household, lines 19-23; image, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com : accessed 27 May 2019); citing NARA microfilm publication T626. ↩
  28. 1940 U.S. census, Kings County, New York, population schedule, Brooklyn, sheet no. 11B (penned), household 254, Morris Geier household, lines 48-53; image, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com : accessed 27 May 2019); citing NARA microfilm publication T627. ↩
  29. “United States World War II Draft Registration Cards, 1942,” images, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com : accessed 27 May 2019), card for Morris Geier, serial no. 2719, Local Draft Board 200, Brooklyn, Kings County, New York; citing NARA, Records of the Selective Service System, 1926-1975, Record Group No. 147, St. Louis, Missouri repository. ↩
  30. “New York, Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957,” database, Ancestry, entry for Moses Geier, age 24, and Feige Geier age 20, arrived 10 Nov. 1907, Wittekind. ↩
  31. “Pleads for Man Who Robbed Him,” Chicago Tribune, 29 October 1910, p. 3, col. 1; image Newspapers (https://www.newspapers.com/image/355237987/?terms=isadore%2Bfried : accessed 19 April 2019).  Several additional articles were written on this same date that reference Isidore’s “sister.” There are two additional articles written in 1909 that I have not yet shared publicly that reference Isidore’s “sister.” ↩
  32. County Clerk, Cook County, Illinois, “Chicago death certificates, 1878-1915,” Fannie Fried, 21 Feburary 1911, certificate #4959; image FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DBLZ-B4?i=391&cat=42925 : accessed 9 August 2018), DGS film #4004922, image 392 of 1425; citing FHL microfilm #1287598. ↩
  33. City of New York, New York County, New York, Department of Health, birth records, Sarah Freit, 9 July 1907, certificate # 36920 (stamped); image, “State of New York certificate and record of birth (Borough of Manhattan) 1898-1909,” FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9GW-D9W2-C?i=1939&cat=706460 : accessed 26 May 2019), DGS film #4206257, image 1940 of 2528; citing, FHL microfilm #1991706.  City of New York, New York County, New York, Department of Health, birth records, Sarah Geyer, 28 January 1909, certificate # 7739 (stamped); image, “State of New York certificate and record of birth (Borough of Manhattan) 1898-1909,” FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9GW-XS3G-H?i=245&cat=706460 : accessed 26 May 2019), DGS film #4206963, image 246 of 2537; citing, FHL microfilm #1992516. ↩
  34. Cousin “Sarah,” great-granddaughter of Hinde Fried, email to author, 28 March 2019. ↩

Published by thegenealogygirl

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51 thoughts on “Finding John Costello – A DNA Journey: The Fried Family, John’s Family, Part 3”

  1. You’re doing a great job, Amberly. The family groups and your line of thought are easy to follow. Love the excitement the questions at the end bring to this dramatic story.
    As an aside, it is amazing how similar the research seems to be to that of Amy Cohen. It makes me wonder, since you did not know about the Jewish connection prior to the original testing, how much you picked up from her by following her blog.

    Reply

    1. Thank you, Cathy! That is such a nice compliment. That was my goal, to make it easy to follow, particularly for my non-genealogist family members. I have so many questions but they are easier to ask when cousins understand the context. So far, I’m getting lots of goodies from the descendants of Anna/Hinde. 🙂

      Yes, very similar to Amy’s research efforts. I’m sure I’ve learned a lot from her. It’s so hard to trace some things back but in this case, she really is my first educator on Jewish research and I didn’t even know I would need it!!

      Reply

  2. Great work, Amberly! It’s amazing how much you have found about the Fried family.

    I have a few comments about your thoughts on who was named for whom. For a Jewish family at that time, especially one from Eastern Europe, it would have been very unlikely that a child would have been named for a living relative. So I doubt that Sarah or Fanny was named for a living aunt or sister. It is more likely they were named for a deceased family member—a grandparent or great-grandparent—and maybe even for the same one. For example, in my husband’s family, three grandchildren were all named for the same grandmother. Her name was Bessie/Pessel, and the three grandchildren are Paul/Pesach, Paula/Pessel, and Barry/Pesach. In my family there are multiple children named for my uncle Maurice—a Michael, a Mark, a Madeline, etc. My brother and two of my first cousins were named for my grandfather. And so on.

    Reply

      1. Thank you, Ellen! So, it would have been okay to name a child the same name as another living family member if the child were being named for a different deceased family member? So let’s use Sarah Esther Salzman for instance. Her second daughter was named Sarah but went by Celia. If Sarah Esther was named for say her deceased grandmother and then she wanted to name her daughter for that same deceased grandmother would that happen? Or was the daughter named for an entirely different deceased Sarah?

        Reply

        1. A daughter would not have been given the same Hebrew or Jewish name as her mother. In Ashkenazi Tradition that is not done and considered bad luck. In Sephardic families there is a different custom. However since this family is from Russia, it is really not accepted. She would only get that name if the mother died soon after birth. Girls traditionally were not given their name till they were a month old. Boys got their name at eight days.

          Reply

          1. Interesting . . . So why would Sarah Esther Salzman have named her daughter Sarah?

            Reply

              1. I don’t think so. Genetically, her descendants match the descendants of her other child that lived to be an adult.

                Reply

                2. “mid name”? Do you mean a middle name? (I just want to make sure I am understanding you.)

        2. My Hebrew name is Hava Sara. I am named for three great grandmothers. Because two are named Sara. I have first cousins named for some of these ancestors, but neither my sister or brother would be given a name for them. Also a mother and a daughter would not have been named for the same person.

          Reply

          1. Okay, that is helpful thank you. What about the same name (or a variant) but for a different person?

            Reply

            1. So my my mother and her first cousin both named a son for their grandfather. Both have the same Hebrew name but different English names.

              Reply

        3. So the daughter would have been named for another Sarah. But still strange in terms of tradition. Unless they adopted a child who already had that name.

          Reply

          1. Okay. I suppose it is also possible that they didn’t really name her Sarah. Her birth certificate is the only place that name appears. All other records say Celia, Cecilia, or her Hebrew name (which is only on her headstone). Her parents weren’t the informant on the birth, the attendant was. I wonder if it was a mistake…?

            Reply

              1. Sossel. Her mother’s name was also in the correct place. I just looked at the certificate again. The informant was the doctor. A Walter Baetz. I wonder if he was in a hurry and just made a mistake or misunderstood.

                Reply

                5. Oh, sorry. I was distracted. Yes, that is what you mean. Sarah Esther Salzman’s headstone says her Hebrew name is “Sarah Ester”.

            2. Remind me what her Hebrew name was? That’s the one that should count. So it might not have been Sarah?

              One other name story. My father-in-law’s mother’s Hebrew name was Sarah, and she was called Sadie. My father-in-law met my mother-in-law, who was also named Sarah. His mother went crazy saying it was bad luck to marry a woman with the same name. So my poor MIL went to a rabbi who “changed” her name to Irene. (I don’t think he even changed her Hebrew name). From that point on, her in-laws always referred to her as Irene. Everyone else continued to call her Sarah.

              So maybe Celia was never really a Sarah.

              Reply

              1. I’m lost in the thread now so I’m not sure whose name you are asking for, but I think you are asking about the daughter named Sarah who went by Celia. If so, her Hebrew name was Sossel.

                Reply

                1. Yes, that’s what I was asking. So her Hebrew name was not the same as Sarah’s so they were not named for the same person (nor was Sossel named for Sarah).

                2. I’m beginning to think that the name Sarah on her birth record was a mistake. That seems most logical, I think…?

                3. It certainly happens in the US. My grandmother’s birth record has her mother’s name listed as Rebecca. It was never Rebecca—it was Pessel in Europe, Bessie here. And we all know how many errors we’ve seen on death certificates.

                4. Yes!! So true! And why we are supposed to support every claim with two independent sources. The longer I research, the more the Genealogy Standards make sense to me.

                5. Yeah, I am not so good about that, and sometimes I feel a bit uneasy asserting a definite birth or death date based on one record or index. But if it’s all I have, I include it, knowing that it could always change down the road. It’s an art, not a science, like all of history.

                6. Yes, it really is. Especially with immigrant family members. There are so many extra complexities. Hard and fast rules are much more difficult to apply in those cases.

              2. Oh, and – your poor MIL!! At least everyone else just kept calling her Sarah.

                Reply

                2. Oh! I bet. I hadn’t thought about that. Did it get better at all?

                3. Ummm, not really. My MIL was very tolerant, but there was never any real affection for her by her in-laws and vice versa.

    2. Thank you, Amy!!

      Now that you say that, I know that I have read that/heard that before but I suppose it hadn’t fully sunk in as I hadn’t needed to apply it before. Some of those variants you listed for Maurice would never occur to me. Is the naming for others tradition always so . . . flexible? I don’t know how to phrase my question. As a researcher with the experience I have (mostly with Scottish naming patterns that are so rigid and unmistakeable) I would never have guessed that a Madeline was named for a Maurice. Is there some sort of structure that I can’t see in that? Is it as much about everyone knowing that a child is named for a specific ancestor even if the actual names aren’t identical? If so, when you are researching, how to you pick up on that when the names are so different?

      Reply

      1. Well, it depends. In modern Jewish families, boys can be named for female ancestors and girls for male. That was not always the case. And what was more important was the Hebrew name, not the secular name (which most Jews didn’t use much except for civil purposes—school, etc.) So in the old days a Moshe would have been named for a Moshe and perhaps they would have both had the same secular name also. Today things are much more loosy-goosy, and people focus on the first initial. And sometimes the Hebrew name is for one person, the secular for another. For example, one of my grandsons is named for my father-in-law, whose Hebrew name was Nechemiah, secular name Nathan. My grandson’s Hebrew name is Natan, not Nechemiah, and his secular name is Nathaniel, not Nathan. His little brother Remy is named for five women! His Hebrew names are for a Sarah, an Eva, and an Elaine, his secular names for a Rose and a Beatrice. So who knows?

        And if you start looking at my father’s side, all bets are off! My dad was a junior! And there were many on that side—very assimilated German Jewish.

        But for the people you are looking for, I’d say that Sarah and Fanny and Isidore and Samuel were all named for dead relatives—probably a grandparent, maybe a great-grandparent or uncle or aunt. If you could find their Hebrew names and those of their parents, a pattern would probably emerge.

        One other thing—in some places the tradition was that the first son was named for a paternal relative, second for a maternal, and so on, and the same with daughters. But others did maternal first, so it’s hard to know. I could give you lots of examples, but I’ve already yammered on too long!! Feel free to ask more questions.

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        1. I see. So the patterns are about as obvious as sorting out their name variants has been. Haha! But I suppose it becomes more clear with more experience like anything else. Thank you, Amy!

          I do have two more questions. Can you offer any insight into the names Zilda and Hudis? One of them is likely the “Sura/Sara” who had some type of illness and was left at home with Riwke. The other is a child none of the living descendents have heard of. Zilda seems more feminine to me. What about Hudis? Is that a male or female name?

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          1. Well, I saw the answers on Facebook, so I could pretend to be smart and give the same answers! But I would not have known, and I am too honest to fake it! 🙂

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    1. Ahhh, that makes sense. Yes, it seems most likely given all that you and Amy have explained.

      Reply
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